Sun 23 Aug 2009
holy holy holy
Posted by bon under pondering stuff
[60] Comments
Mommy, he interjects, the word escaping from him for the hundredth time in an hour. he is a balloon steadily leaking demands and questions, all the air being pushed out to make room for the wonders of the world. i am apparently the keeper of these secrets, the one who will spill all the magic if only pestered properly. i forget this is a privilege.
what’s God?
my head snaps around. his gaze is blue, a little pouty. i can see the openness on his face turning inward, ready to flit to another of countless questions. yet he holds my eye. i sigh, and realize i’ve been waiting for this question since the day we decided to have kids.
i sigh because short of bringing out flip charts and diagrams for an impromptu Comparative Religion 101, pre-kindergarten version, i still don’t have an answer.
in our house, it’s not the Death Conversation that makes us quake. that one comes and goes, a familiar path, ripe with dinosaur bones and daily drives past the cemetery where my Nannie’s buried. we talk about Finn and uncle Stephen casually, occasionally yet regularly enough that O seems to accept them as normal, family members who are simply not here. the other night, before bed, we looked at the pictures of O and Rusty the Very Good Dog and i explained to Oscar that Rusty’d died that morning and we decided that was sad. and then he wondered if Clementine, our cat, would die tomorrow and i said probably not and he nodded sagely and told me that cat fossils are not as interesting as dinosaurs, anyway.
but talk of God and even Santa Claus ’round these parts and i am distinctly off-balance, out of my element.
it’s not faithlessness that tongue-ties me. i’m comfortable in my liminal space, straddling god with a small g and disdain for dogma with a hangover of reverence for the possibility of the sacred. i am politically a secularist, hardcore. personally, i have an encyclopaediac fascination with religion, but claim none for myself. yet i can talk religion from a position of inquiry until the cows come home.
it is the position of authority in relation to belief that freaks me out.
i have a firm, unshakable belief in, uh, not much. the value of the examined life, the principle of “do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” the consoling power of jellybeans. that’s about it. and so the heady responsibility to inculcate either belief or disbelief in my children freaks me out. i can blather on happily about the mythology of the Easter Bunny and the resurrection story and how they intersect until a three-year-old’s eyes cross and he offers me all his chocolate eggs to just shut up already…but it skeeves me out to tell him that a large rabbit actually entered our house and left said eggs behind. just as it skeeves me out to tell him Rusty’s in doggie heaven or Finn is an angel or any of the other doctrinal cultural narratives he’s starting to pick up from the world around him.
i don’t particularly mind him hearing them. they’re part of the picture, part of the mishmash of understandings he and Posey will need to come to terms with as members of this society. but from my mouth, all they’re ever likely to hear on those topics is, “some people believe…” or “historically…”
and in my heart of hearts, some small part of me longs for it to be different.
here, in the confessional of the Holy Blog where you can all pretend you can’t really see me through that little screened box thingy, i ‘fess up. when it comes to raising kids, i wish i had a faith to give them. any faith, really. i’m fairly equivocal. just some place to stand, to carve out and say, this is Mine. this is OURS.
i picture taking O on my lap, as my mother must have with me, and stating earnestly, reassuringly, “God is all-powerful. God is love. God looks after us.” i drool on this picture a little, it looks so pretty. so clean-cut and tidy. so achingly representative of belonging, which is the thing even after these years that i miss most about my lack of a faith community. so rewarding, to feel one is doing good. sharing the tenets of one’s deeply held beliefs with one’s children is a process that tends to feel good way down in the bones.
that good feeling has probably been the viaduct of cultural survival for millenia, my cynical self whispers. i tell it to hush.
part of me says no set of beliefs can simply be passed down from generation to generation like heirlooms. beliefs are living things, paths that must be walked. particularly in a pluralistic world where kids will eventually become aware that alternate paths are available, the faith of one’s fathers must be something that each person ultimately takes on for him or herself.
this part of me has it easy. my beliefs – which have their own ethic and structure just as those more traditionally coded “religious” do – don’t have a Sunday School version, no. they’re not easy to explain to a three year old. but then neither, really, are anybody’s. and a lot less is riding on my introduction.
because if my children grow up to reject what i believe, to cobble together their own paths, then the ethic of the examined life that i’ve held dear will end up, um, validated. i don’t particularly fear my children ending up religious, don’t fear for their souls if they should decide that the streams of Catholicism or Judaism or left-wing Protestantism flowing through the family are for them. the logical opposite of my own belief system is not faith but unawareness. and unawareness i can counter, starting even with the three-year-old, with my handy dandy homegrown Comparative Religion class. having Protestants, Catholics and Jews in the immediate family helps too.
but the belonging part is what escapes me. the good feeling part is what escapes me. i cannot point to a long family tradition of vague agnosticism and say this is who we are, child, these are our people, our history. i cannot dive into the infinite variety of doctrine out there regarding the sacred and say this is it, little one, this is the Truth, the Holy Word. i can say these are holy words to many, but that does not come with the same warm feeling of inducting my child into something that is holy to me.
i would like to. i cannot, any more than i can fly.
instead i settle Oscar’s solid little body in the space atop my crossed legs, up against me. i pull him close and i whisper, many people believe in an idea called God. for some of them, God is all-powerful: he’s like a Father, who knows everything and controls everything that happens here on earth. for some of them, God is a spirit of goodness. some call him by different names. some don’t think he’s a him at all.
and i feel the small heart beating under my hand and the tickling curls against my chin and i wish i could explain how it is these moments of quiet and talking and small bodies safely curled against me that make me reverent, thankful, full to the brim with the glory of that unnameable, unspeakable thing my own soul calls holy…but that would probably be sacrilege. and words would not do it justice.
still, i wish i had them.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
for those of you with faith and without, how have you talked about it with your children? what parts have been hard to explain, or easy? are there parts of your own belief structure you most want your children to share and understand?
is there anything you wish were different about the process or its fit with your culture & community, but that just doesn’t jive with your own personal ethic or beliefs?
60 Responses to “ holy holy holy ”
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Trackback from davecormier (dave cormier)
August 23rd, 2009 at 6:17 pm
I have a special hatred for this kind of thread-jack. I have half a mind to find ‘Mike’ [link to post] -
Trackback from dlnorman (dlnorman)
August 23rd, 2009 at 6:34 pm
@davecormier great response to mike’s threadjacking, dave. I love the “humbly, Mike” sig on his first epic comment. humbly, my ass. -
Trackback from gminks (Gina Minks)
August 23rd, 2009 at 6:48 pm
this is why I love the edu crowd. RT @davecormier: I have a special hatred for this kind of thread-jack [link to post] -
Trackback from davecormier (dave cormier)
August 23rd, 2009 at 7:36 pm
@dlnorman I humbly say that you must believe what I believe. -
Trackback from bulmantaylor (Lisa Bulman Taylor)
August 23rd, 2009 at 7:37 pm
@davecormier very well written blog. kudos to @cribchronicles -
Trackback from HHG (Heidi Hass Gable)
August 23rd, 2009 at 7:38 pm
@davecormier Hatred is a strong reaction! Interesting in context of my own recent self reflections… http://bit.ly/is10x -
Trackback from bulmantaylor (Lisa Bulman Taylor)
August 23rd, 2009 at 7:39 pm
@davecormier yep… you bring up anything that questions dogma: either religion or politics, you always find the one who wants the pulpit -
Trackback from cribchronicles (Bonnie Stewart)
August 23rd, 2009 at 7:40 pm
@davecormier no need to shake fists at the proselytizers, dear. -
Trackback from davecormier (dave cormier)
August 23rd, 2009 at 8:38 pm
@HHG it’s taking other people’s internal struggles and using the opportunity to forward your agenda that i hate. -
Trackback from cribchronicles (Bonnie Stewart)
August 24th, 2009 at 11:05 am
maybe we CAN talk about religion w/out (much) acrimony, repentant proselytizer aside. [link to post] -
Trackback from cribchronicles (Bonnie Stewart)
August 24th, 2009 at 11:33 am
uh, about God. by the agnostic just spared from a hurricane. [link to post]




August 23rd, 2009 at 3:28 pm
I think, perhaps, you have two roads upon which to travel here. The first being the idea of sharing deeply held beliefs. It can still happen, and I’m sure it does quite frequently in your house. You can still have the snuggled in the lap, “there is beauty in this world” moments of sharing your soul. It just won’t be the sharing of faith. And that’s perfectly fine.
The second issue is faith. I call myself a person of faith. I also call myself a father of a seven month old who I’ve yet to have this discussion with, though I’ve thought of it often. The idea of sharing my faith as a tradition scares me. Scares me quite a bit, honestly. Because I can’t make my faith be my son’s faith. He has to believe it earnestly himself.
So, as I work through this issue much as you are, albeit from a slightly varied angle, I suppose I will take the approach as I would the question of the color in the sky or how it is the birds fly. I’ll respond to “what’s God” with an invitation. I hope I’ll have the courage to do so. I’ll invite my son to explore the question with me. To examine the evidence each day. To increasingly ask the difficult questions. And I’ll trust that I won’t work to push his faith to be my faith, but that I’ll trust my faith to let his faith be his own.
August 23rd, 2009 at 4:22 pm
Bonnie, I am almost 38 years old and am barely beginning to scratch the surface of the damage that was done to me by my religious upbringing. I left home at 17 for a private religious college. Every class included religious references and discussion of what people had learned in church on Sunday. My first thought was that we were paying way too much for something we could get for free in church. I didn’t want to learn any more of that, I had four years of perfect attendance at daily seminary before high school.
About the same time I gave up on college, I gave up on religion. My family was mortified, of course. However, they could simply blame the devil. Obviously, they raised me to know the truth, so the devil must have tempted me. They maintained faith that some day I would return to what I “knew” to be true. I decided not to blame them, or anyone else for my feelings. I accepted everyone’s right to worship as they choose.
When I had children, I decided to take the path of, “some people believe.” I didn’t want my children to judge anyone, especially my family, because I didn’t believe. I let my daughter go to church with my mother when she visited. But it didn’t take long before the religious paraphernalia began to arrive. When kids go to church and hear stories and sing songs, they believe. When kids see picture books and coloring books with religious messages, they believe. It becomes harder and harder to maintain the, “some people believe,” stance.
I have a very difficult time with Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy. If I could go back in time, I would never tell those lies to my children. They’re passed off as acceptable by adults who rationalize about the joy in a child’s eye. My kids are joyful playing with a pile of dirt and a cardboard box. I honestly don’t want them trained to get excited about material goods. I’m all for gathering the family, sharing stories and good food, taking care of those in need, and all that good stuff. But the rest of it I see as damaging. Halloween was always my favorite holiday, until I watched my own child begging for candy and I suddenly found it disturbing. (Aside: My kids were born on Halloween and Christmas Eve.)
One of the most difficult challenges I’ve found in raising children without religion is trying to help them learn by experiencing consequences on their own. There are so many things in life that don’t have immediate consequences, and when your children do these things, you become shockingly aware of the system of morals and ethics we’ve contrived as a society. Without religion, it’s very hard to explain wrong and right in circumstances where they don’t see the results of their actions. It doesn’t help that most of popular media geared toward children is about not getting caught, or getting caught and everything working out just dandy.
I have yet to figure out what to do about actions with no identifiable consequences. If my daughter tells a lie, and no one gets hurt and she doesn’t have to ask God for forgiveness, how is she going to learn it’s wrong? At some point, she has to have faith that what I tell her is true, but how does she learn faith if she has no example of it in the home? So that’s just one example of the challenges I’ve had with my approach.
My more recent challenge is with the decisions I’ve made for my family that go against the way I was raised by my parents. My daughter wants to spend a few more weeks with my parents this summer, but I am not going to let her. It isn’t that I don’t love them, or think they will deliberately hurt her. I just do not want her exposed to their ideal of what a family is, during a time when her own family does not satisfy that ideal. I don’t want her to feel she is abnormal, or that her mother is doing something she “knows” is wrong. I want her to grow up with the strength of character to know that there is no one way of doing things and that she has the power to take control of her own life if she feels she is being abused. I know this is something my parents will never understand, so I will avoid the conversation.
This summer I spent a few hours with my grandmother, a powerful force in our family, and one rarely questioned. She asked me what went wrong with her family. She wanted to know how she raised four children who remain faithful to the church, who each had 4-5 children, only half of whom stayed with the church. She wanted to know what she did wrong. I told her she could not judge us by our church attendance, and she could not presume to know what is in our hearts. I told her she could not know whether the actions of one of the non-believers had more positive influence in the world than those of the ones who attend church. She shared spiritual experiences with me in an attempt to convert me to her truth. I told her I had many spiritual experiences, but could not attribute them to organized religion. Finally, I told her I refused to believe in a God who allowed mothers to anguish over the sins of their children. I don’t think anyone had ever stood up to her like this. She called me when I returned from the trip, and thanked me for talking to her.
This seems to be my longest post comment ever, but you brought it out in me! I guess what I’m saying is, whatever you choose, things will get in the way of that decision and you will have to handle each event separately, and hope you make the decision that will allow your children to think freely, and find others with whom they engage passionately. You do have faith. You have faith that you are raising children who will not only question the world, but also question you and come to their own reality, in spite of you. Thank you for always bravely sharing your world. I don’t comment much, but I always read and always learn.
August 23rd, 2009 at 4:33 pm
I have no idea what I would do. I grew up Southern Baptist and have strayed so far from that mark that I may as well have been raised a heathen.
I think you just tell them your truth and let them make their own way.
August 23rd, 2009 at 4:35 pm
You know, it’s funny. Becoming more solidly footed in my atheism has made it all so much easier. I don’t have the doubts, the what if’s. I measure things out as logic to the girls, asking if they believe, if it makes sense to them, if they want it.
So far, they haven’t. To them, the idea of some great big dude who will save them makes less sense than a catepillar turning into a moth.
I too wish I believed in the RC world of my youth, that which my mother so dearly wanted me to hold to my heart. There was comfort there, the familar ritual that still calls to me some days. I offer it to them-explaining it, talking about it, letting them off to church if needed.
But they aren’t called to it, and that is what I wish. I wish for my daughters to be called to their faith, if they find it at all, much as I am called to the beauty and divinity of the world around me, of space stretching out past me. I want them to find the world.
I wish my mother was here to give her faith, her fervant believes as an example to them though. She’s be a good teacher.
August 23rd, 2009 at 4:55 pm
we do not go to church. nor do we believe in god. my husband is a flat-out atheist. i like my wiggle room, so i am an agnostic. :)
we have told the boys that we do not believe, but that our system (or lack thereof) should not be their default. we have tried to teach them the different ways that others believe and have encouraged them to go to church with friends, if they want, to see what it’s like.
and every time one of the boys has said, “I don’t believe,” or something like it, i protest and tell them that they are not old enough to say that yet, that they will have to come to that on their own terms and in their own time.
but secretly i too wish that i had a belief system that i could pass on to them. there’s something so reassuring about having one.
August 23rd, 2009 at 5:11 pm
I want to be cautious here, as conversations about religion, God, and the like often turn sour because folks have such strongly held beliefs.
Let me work on establishing, however, that no matter how strong one’s beliefs are, it is possible they are wrong. Now, I am not calling you wrong or anyone else here wrong, but it is worth establishing that it is possible to be wrong.
How?
The law of non-contradiction applies here. Something cannot both be true and false at the same time. This view of logic corresponds with reality, when many others do not. Simply put, if I walk into the road, it is either the bus or me, not both.
Similarly, if we meet in the mall and speak, and I tell you my wife is pregnant, you might congratulate me. Then, if I walk down the hall a bit, meet someone else, and tell them my wife is not pregnant, you might think me crazy. She is either pregnant, or she isn’t (assuming no odd qualifications, like we think so but aren’t sure, etc). She is either pregnant or she isn’t.
The law of non-contradiction is a difficult pill to swallow for many. The trouble is the ramifications don’t necessarily allow for all faiths to lead to the same destination. In fact, when one examines the many religions of the world, one finds them to be superficially the same, and fundamentally different.
I think what is necessary is to have a conversation with one’s self, about what is desirable when choosing a worldview. I think there are four distinct areas that are deserving of attention when choosing a worldview.
First, there’s the issue of origin, then morality, then meaning, then destiny.
In light of each of these distinct categories, one must look at each worldview and decide which one adequately explains all of them. It is not sufficient to simply discard one and choose another if it cannot satisfy those four quadrants.
To Jen I would say that you need to be careful not to allow the perversion of a worldview affect the worldview itself. I am so sorry that you had a troubled upbringing in the Christian church, and that you are seeing folks perhaps act in a way that is incongruent with that faith. However, it is vital that you examine that worldview (and any other) without examining the ways we mess it up. Just like you would not discard Islam because of the radicals. Don’t discard Christianity because of the way Christians are (me included).
In fact I am reminded of Mahatma Ghandi once saying something to the effect of “I like your Christ, I don’t like your Christians”.
I realize that we are by nature subjective, but it is vital in this discussion to put aside pre-existing biases and examine each worldview on its own merits as objectively as possible.
Oh, and one quick note on morals. To say something is bad presumes a standard of good by which to judge it. If we call something good, we assume a moral law. We cannot assume a moral law without assuming a moral law Giver. The logical outworking of atheism (and that is a term rife with problems) is a lack of morals. We often attribute morals to society, which still begs the question of by what standard are we calling something moral or immoral? By what standard are we calling something good or bad? We must posit a moral law Giver to afford ourselves the opportunity to call something good or bad.
Lastly, I beg you not to attack me. I have attempted to logically argue my perspective, from an almost purely philosophical point of view.
I am a Christian because in my own searching (which led me through many different faiths, including a lack of faith) I find that Christ is the only answer to the four quadrants mentioned earlier. When one truly looks at each faith, and the logical outworkings of atheism, I think it is a most reasonable conclusion to make to arrive at faith in Jesus.
I respectfully submit to you that if we live our lives as though there are absolutes (relativism simply does not work) then we must consider the eternal Absolute.
Humbly,
Mike
August 23rd, 2009 at 5:16 pm
Wow. I’d think that I wrote this, but for the fact that it’s written so very beautifully that it had me on my knees (and the fact that I don’t have boy children was a big clue too).
I’d give more of my own thoughts too, but between your post and the following comments, I think everyone else has already summed it all up for me.
Perhaps all the thoughts you’ve triggered in my head will lead me to a one day post of my own. Till then, I’ll just say that I believe there’s more truth in writing like you do than in any religious text I’ve ever come across.
August 23rd, 2009 at 5:17 pm
@slouchy
Just a note, I find it interesting that someone can consider themselves (as your husband appears to) as a hard line atheist.
The word atheist comes from the Greek a theos, literally meaning “no God”.
If we define God, in general terms, as “absolute, infinite being”, then it is quite difficult for your husband to posit the non-existence of something he would have to have infinite knowledge to know.
In other words, if I posit to you that there are no white rocks with purple spots on it anywhere in the universe, I would have to have absolute knowledge to be able to say that.
I respect your position, and encourage you to investigate the evidence. I was once in your shoes, and found that there are answers to my questions, and that there is the person of Jesus Christ. It is most reasonable, through logic (and quite *not* through a leap of faith) to come to believe on Christ. I refer to my earlier comment about the need for a worldview to satisfy the four quadrants in order to be worthy of consideration.
Mike
August 23rd, 2009 at 5:30 pm
@Mike I didn’t have a troubled upbringing. I thought it was perfect. I just realize now that it’s okay not to be perfect, and I don’t want my children to feel there is something wrong with them if they don’t mirror Christian ideals. I don’t believe it, because I don’t believe it, not because of anything anyone else’s actions. I’ve not been mistreated, just exposed to a belief system that neglects to include others, and looks down on those who do not believe.
August 23rd, 2009 at 5:34 pm
Great post, Bon.
We’ve struggle with these conversations, too. As an agnostic, I have problems trying to teach young children to be skeptical AND respectful of others beliefs.
August 23rd, 2009 at 5:39 pm
@Jen
I am sorry you think Christians look down on those who do not believe. I also apologize for misinterpreting your comments.
I don’t think Christianity looks down on those who do not believe, I think sometimes Christians do. That doesn’t make it right.
Please, don’t judge Christianity on the actions of Christians. We Christians pretty much mess up all the time.
As for non-inclusion, that’s a trickier one, and a very valid point. I would handle that this way..
First, if we agree that the law of non-contradiction is true, then simply put not all religions can be true.
I think we would agree that this is true in other realms. In Math, for example, there is simple one correct answer to a basic arithmetic problem. 2+2 is always 4, assuming base 10. There is never another correct answer.
If we agree that there are absolutes like this then the argument holds true that not all religions can be true. In fact, most other worldviews argue this as well.
Islam, for example, calls itself the one true religion, which excludes others every bit as much as you claim Christianity does.
The Hindu faith is significantly predicated on the need to be born in the Brahman (sp?) caste, excluding many others, particularly folks like me who were decidedly not born into that caste.
There are faiths who attempt to be all inclusive, such as the Ba’hai (sp?). The only trouble is they even exclude the exclusivists!
So exclusion can’t really be a logical qualification of a worldview, since most all of the major worldviews exclude the others.
I say this gently, because I know it will sound “Christian” but I beg you not to take it like I were tossing it at you like mud, but truth is by nature exclusivistic. Truth by nature excludes falsehood.
Man I know that sounds condescending and I don’t mean it to. I can only imagine how you’re hearing it. Please understand I am looking at this purely logically, not religiously. This argument just happens to have its logical outworkings in religion.
Mike
August 23rd, 2009 at 5:47 pm
I’m having a similar problem. I am an Atheist, my husband is more of an Agnostic. My mother is a non-practicing Presbyterian, my father was raised Jewish and became Agnostic.
I don’t believe.
I want to teach my children to make their own decisions about belief, yet it is difficult to explain it fairly or rationally.
August 23rd, 2009 at 5:51 pm
@Mike What’s a worldview? (serious question)
August 23rd, 2009 at 5:54 pm
Bon, we have the exact same conversations in our house–everyone believes something different, you have to find your own way, blahblahblah. But it’s framed against the backdrop of my very Christian family, which I think actually makes it more confusing for my kids. Also, my husband hates the fundies, so he’s not always so sanguine about it all. You put into lovely words the ambivalence I feel myself about this path we’re on. Thank you.
Mike: I don’t want to get into an argument with you (especially b/c I probably won’t even be back), but I wonder if your law of non-contradiction can’t be applied so dogmatically to religious discussion because so much of theology is about metaphor. When you say your wife is pregnant, you mean, she is truly and really pregnant. Fact. Not figurative language. But when Jesus says, “in my father’s house are many mansions,” that can’t possibly be a literal statement interpreted only one way. Thus, when he goes on to say, in a parallel conversation, “no one gets to the father except through me,” it seems presumptuous to assume that this pronouncement must be a literal statement to which the non-contradiction law applies. I think these issues of interpretation plague much of religious doctrinal texts, because few are so clear as your stepping into the path of the bus implies.
August 23rd, 2009 at 5:59 pm
I’ve thought about this one a lot too – and have had many conversations, in particular with my 11yo daughter who questions everything…
I see the things you talk about as two kinds of conversations – one about spirituality/tolerance/beliefs and another about traditions/belonging/culture.
I’ve often found myself using the spirituality conversations to share with my children the variety of beliefs in this world, the beliefs that I hold – and asking them to contemplate what FEELS right to them? And why? I try to connect them with that inner voice (call it your heart or your soul or God or??) so that they can learn to listen to what is true for them. Not for me, not for their teachers, not for society.
And I, like you, long for the strength of connections – but don’t want it from organized religion. So I highlight and honour my family’s traditions. We always have spaghetti at Grandma’s house on Halloween, we go to the farmer’s market together on Sundays, we have “mommy cuddles” at bedtime before the lights get turned off, etc…
The sense of belonging can be just as strong from a shared love of fresh chocolate chip cookies baked and enjoyed together on a rainy day as it is from sitting together within the familiarity of church community. Because after all, it’s the shared sense of belonging that’s so powerful in that case – not how we actually arrived at that place…
I like to separate these two aspects because I think the religion conversation just complicates (and frankly gets in the way of!) the fundamental value of feeling a part of something bigger than yourself.
So far, it’s gone well with my kids. My daughter thinks about what she hears re: religion – and sometimes accepts, sometimes respectfully finds her own path. And, even more important, she reflects on her own beliefs in many other areas of her life as well. She’s learning to trust her own voice.
Thank goodness! Or thank God. Or the universe. Or whatever works for you… :)
August 23rd, 2009 at 6:01 pm
@Jen
A worldview is simply “The overall perspective from which one sees and interprets the world.”
(source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/worldview)
Since we’re subjective people, we all have a way we see the world. You have a worldview, as do I, whether consciously considered or just formed based on experiences.
Mike
August 23rd, 2009 at 6:03 pm
@Gwen
Not sure if you’ll be back to read this, but I think it is possible to have a discussion of Christianity based on its core beliefs and not consider metaphors quite yet.
While metaphors do certainly bring up the need for interpretation (which is a whole different conversation) it’s reasonable to set them aside when discussing the fundamentals of the faith.
As for the law of non-contradiction, I think it’s not something that is dogmatically applied, but it is something that is *naturally* applied by reality.
Mike
August 23rd, 2009 at 6:04 pm
Bonnie,
Just a note, if you would rather me not continue this conversation in your space, I will certainly respect that.
I do want to note that I am not angrily replying or posting, rather engaging with thoughtful concern and logical implications.
Thanks for putting up with me thus far.
Mike
August 23rd, 2009 at 6:13 pm
The comments to this post are so intelligent and person, I am ashamed to say I have very little to add. I have no kids, and have no answers.
But your writing today gave me more spiritual thrills than going to any church or temple.
August 23rd, 2009 at 6:14 pm
@mike
This post, in my mind, is not about whether someone ‘should’ believe in god but rather how one deals with traditions passed down to us that we no longer believe in. You have, for reasons of your own, decided to make a ‘but you should believe in god’ argument rather than address the material in the post. That’s a threadjack, is also proselytizing and, i would argue, trolling. So… -1 for style points.
As you’ve jacked the thread, lets address your premises as you’ve presented them. I appreciate your mixture of Aristotle and Aquinas.
The law of non-contradiction. uh… that’s not really a law. We accept perfect contradiction fine with general and special relativity. Even if it was a law, carrying it from science over to the social is a misappropriation of context. It’s like arguing that tunneling through a mountain is the fastest way for a person to walk to the other side because it’s a straight line. “laws” that apply to the world of the abstract don’t work so well in reality. so… no. you can’t have that. Contradictions abound. Our judicial system punish and rehabilitate. Our police system attacks and defends us. Our education system normalizes and opens our minds. they are part of life.
As for the ‘if you say bad, you’ve juxtaposed good, have made a moral argument which must come from a moral rule giver’ this is pure fantasy.
1. I can use the word ‘bad’ about a baseball pitch that came close to hitting me in the head without making reference to a creator.
2. I can make a bad/good distinction about an ethical claim or a judgement call without a creator.
3. I can make a moral claim based on a community’s agreement that these things are the morals that we live by. Christianity itself are ‘interpretations’ of texts and revelations. That same interpretive power can be applied to ‘natural law of the jungle’ or ‘a broad survey of dominant world traditions’ to come up with moral laws. Or, say, humanism.
4. You presume god, and therefore see god. In your worldview you’re right and can’t be wrong. In my worldview you could be right and wrong at the same time. But you don’t get to decide what is True for everyone else.
Atheism – you are quite right that, logically, you can’t prove a negative. I can’t ‘PROVE’ that there is ‘NO’ god. The same way that I can’t prove that there is no flying spaghetti monster, no flying purple people eater in my attic, no alligator under my bed (while i’m not looking at it) or no Truth. Nor can you prove God. Unless you presume god. The ‘proofs’ of aquinas that you are repeating can, in no way, remove the assumption of god from their premises… they are always tautological.
You can believe that there is a god.
I can believe that there isn’t one. (which is the atheism most people ascribe to… and if we go back to the greek origins of every word meaning things get silly. My name is David… Beloved in greek. it’s true… but, really, is it true for all Davids?)
But you can’t tell me i can’t… nor can i tell you the opposite.
These are the contradictions that are part of the human condition and no oversimplified hidden premise can change that. The world is complicated, the very big and the very small contradict and people like you feel the need to tell other people what they ‘MUST’ believe.
August 23rd, 2009 at 6:19 pm
My apologies for my “thread-jack”. I was attempting to engage honestly about a very important topic. I can see that I offended (given certain tweets about this and likely joking threats). I will humbly bow out.
Respectfully,
Mike
August 23rd, 2009 at 6:49 pm
Mike, i guess you took yourself out before i could respond to your comment above about whether i’d rather you not continue.
your earnestness is obvious but i’m not sure i agree when you call it engagement. engaging is not about trying to prove everyone else wrong, IMO. you have a particular understanding of logic and truth, and i respect that and welcome anybody who wants to state their position on the topic. i’m genuinely interested in how people relate to faith or lack thereof, particularly in relation to kids.
but i’d rather people didn’t use this space simply to proselytize their own truths or prove others’ wrong, thanks. that is not humble or respectful, nor does it particular meet people’s beliefs in the place where they come from.
and if you DO have kids and want to tell us how you approach sharing faith with them, cool…welcome back.
August 23rd, 2009 at 7:02 pm
Bonnie,
I sincerely apologize. I see that I have acted incorrectly. I suppose I got carried away.
Please, delete my comments, including this one. And I sincerely apologize to anyone else I offended, and there are quite a few given the comments and tweets.
I do have children, three of them. These are issues I face. Forgive me for not relating that in my initial comments.
Again, I am very sorry. Please delete my comments and relay my deepest apologies to anyone I have offended.
Mike
August 23rd, 2009 at 7:31 pm
Whenever I talk to my nieces & nephews or children in general about GOD I just share that I don’t know a lot myself but being a Christian (having done the whole giving my life over to JESUS because He gave His to bring me back to the Father schtick) I feel incredibly loved & excited about Life most of the time. And maybe whenever they are scared or confused or whatever it might work for them, too. To me it’s no different than sharing anything else with a child that helped me grow up happier or talking about a great thing I saw or heard or ate. To me, that’s all JESUS meant by saying we are His witnesses. I want to comfort them with the comfort I feel of having an anywhere anytime Father who loves them & they can talk to about absolutely anything because He personally experienced all the same stuff Himself. And it seems to help.
August 23rd, 2009 at 7:32 pm
What a beautifully written post. The struggle you face is one that we all face, to a greater or lesser degree whether we have faith or not. What and how to pass things that are important on to our children.
I do have faith, more or less the faith of my family, although expressed a tad differently, I think. I am more liturgical than my parents.
I think the hardest thing to explain to kids, in adult language, are the parts of belief that we accept on faith. Like, Jesus lives in heaven with God (well, sortof, but that is a different issue) and lives in our hearts. When my 3 yo asks me where Jesus lives, I give him that answer, but kindof cringe, because it sounds odd. I believe it, but trying to put it in language that a 3 yo can understand makes it sound odd.
I think the weird thing is that my 3 yo accepts it. It isn’t hard for him to believe that God (Jesus) can exist in different ways in different places all at the same time.
I want both of my children to make their faith their own. Because I believe mine to be true, I can’t help but hope (and pray) that they will stick with our faith. Nevertheless, faith doesn’t really affect our lives until we own it ourselves.
Frankly, I think non-believers are more intellectually honest than people who go to church because the family does, or because they think they are supposed to, or whatever.
Anyhoo….I think your post captured that angsty feeling that we have as parents, about the deep stuff.
August 23rd, 2009 at 9:52 pm
We’d taken the “some people believe…” route until this summer, when someone at camp was clearly proselytizing and Will was coming home spouting some truly horrific stuff. Then we laid it out a bit more about where we stood, but not much beyond “that’s not what we believe.”
Loved the way you wrote about this, too. Truly excellent.
August 23rd, 2009 at 11:41 pm
Bon: beautifully said. With my almost 4 year old, I struggle so much with these questions, and our parents’ reactions, and Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. I teach college English, Muslim students (those raised in Muslim countries) find the idea of magic creatures that come into one’s home disturbing. My students raised in the US, of any Christian tradition, are hard pressed to explain the hows and whys, and the conversations are often difficult, hilarious, and a little painful.
August 23rd, 2009 at 11:49 pm
Thanks for the fodder for more thoughts. Moving to the Southern US last year, I wondered if there would be more discussion of religion in our house since we were told that after being asked your name the next question was “What church do you go to?” In fact, that has been the exception rather than the rule which has been a relief since it hasn’t been a topic I’ve wanted to tackle just yet.
When my grandfather died last fall, Isabelle seemed to take it in stride – understanding that I was sad and being sad because I was sad. A few months later she told me he was in heaven. Since we had not discussed heaven, I asked where she had learned about it. She said her friend had told her that, I quite honestly said that is what some people believe but that I was sure what I believed.
Last month in NS, two incidents have made me think about church/religion again. First, I asked if she wanted to go to church (United Church of Canada), she quite excitedly agreed. I wanted to see the stained glass window which had been dedicated to my other grandfather. I don’t think she got much out of the experience; however, the fill-in minister gave a very interesting sermon on the interpretation of the loaves and fishes and sharing within a community.
Second, I met some people who I hadn’t see in years who also recently moved to our area. He is an Episcopalian priest, she a hospital chaplain – I have always liked the idea of the friend who happens to be a minister. I guess I feel if I know the person as a person, I have a better understanding of where they are coming from as a minister.
Will this spur me on to take Isabelle to church and/or try to better explain the concept of church/religion? Maybe. I do want her to understand that Christmas does not equal Santa, Easter does not equal chocolate etc. I also want her to learn about other cultures and traditions and if I expect her to understand those then I can’t shy away from what her RC father and United mother were brought up with.
August 24th, 2009 at 12:42 am
Well I’ve been out of the blog loop for awhile and what a post to come back to.
(hi Bon! i’m the former Awake from the unceremoniously closed While the Baby Sleeps…[lost my mojo there for now], this link is just to my boring family blog of “here’s my zillion and ten pictures of the kiddos”)
anyway.
I am a Christian and continually (hopefully) growing in my faith. However, I agree with your statement, “it is the position of authority in relation to belief that freaks me out.” Now I know, with the childlike faith as spoken in Psalms, that Jesus Christ came and died for my sins. I know that I don’t know it all though – therefore, it is my job to teach tolerance and curiosity to my children. But, it is also my duty (honor and mission) to teach my children to love Jesus and honor God.
We talk in stories – your basics: Noah, Jonah, David & Goliath – the ones with their accompanying toddler approved sing songs. Do these stories tell the whole story – nope, but they open the door. When my children grow, my plan is to turn to the good Book as much as I can for the answers. Not to prove that I am the authority, but that there is a reason my husband and I turn to the higher authority in the Word.
Having been shut out by family for choosing this church door over that one – you can bet they’ll be lots of discussions on tolerance and religious ugliness.
But now you’ve got that hymn in my head, “…God in three persons…” ;-)
August 24th, 2009 at 12:55 am
My mouth is hanging open and the universe just slapped my chin shut with three fingers.
This is fascinating.
I’m tough to offend when it comes to arguments of religion, seeing as I have no fixed views. I have experiential fodder, but no structure for it.
When I see arguments like Mike’s presented, I’m not remotely offended – but rather wish I could sit down with that person and nudge them a little as you did, Dave. A comment section like this just makes me yearn for a fireplace and a few bottles of wine. And questioning, and not settling for stock, dialogue-ending answers. That’s the kind of conversation that’s incredibly important. Failing to exercise that very particular ear-muscle makes us thick-headed and closed-off.
(We spend so much damn time figuring out who’s right and who’s wrong based on what words they use. We divide humanity into factions over semantics, and it’s sad.)
Evan’s just four. He’s never heard the word ‘God’. But he knows that Liam was his brother who is no longer here. He’s asked where Liam is and that’s the closest thing to asking about religion I’ve ever had to deal with.
I said what felt natural, and that will never exclude anything he ever decides to believe. I said Liam lives in the stars, that he’s Evan and Ben’s spirit brother, that he loves them very much. At this point in their lives, this is all the absolute truth they need to know. Beyond, of course, Don’t Litter.
August 24th, 2009 at 10:18 am
I also read with awe….for the same reasons Kate did. I long to have these kinds of conversation, in depth, not superficially. It is hard today to have a conversation like this one even among friends as someone often ends up offended. Accidentally, sorry, can’t take it back.
I come from a french catholic family…raised around the Moncton area, who were/are absolutely appalled that Erik and I have chosen to NOT baptize our son into the RC faith. We made this choice because we don’t practice and haven’t in a long time. Also my husband is a pretty solid non-believer. I leave myself some wiggle room (nicely said Slouchy!). We also don’t have a plan for discussions about faith and religion except to be as open and honest as possible. I would like to expose F. to as many religions as possible at an age appropriate time. However, planing and doing are two separate things. Friends of mine (good friends) have gone about it very differently. While some (who are also non-believers) have chosen to provide their children with a “default faith” by getting their kids baptized, others (like us) have chosen to not provide a “default faith” and instead to take it day-by-day. Difficult to say what will be the most beneficial in the long run.
Also, I am slightly terrified with respect to how to actually put my “teaching about the world’s religions” into action. We have a couple of good children’s books dealing with world religion…but I am thinking that they will VERY insufficient..:*)
N
August 24th, 2009 at 10:56 am
we have yet to find this conversation with them, but it will come. i was raised in the catholic church. daily parochial school my only place until college in NYC. tim is not just secular, he is a-religious. he just is. he has no learning, no yearning, no need. and yet he walks as the best example of a good person i know. i feel much much more wicked than he, despite having received almost every sacrament.
i no longer practice, have not since 19. i still find some tug at the hearing of hymns sung from distant churches, i stood as witness to my young brother’s confirmation…first time in church in years. i do not doubt that i have faith, just religion makes it all screwy.
owen seems to gravitate to churches, mace has no interest. i started to write on this a few days ago and find my words clumsy at defining what i feel and believe. i am a mish mash of belief, yet that does not bother me so much. i feel that we will have to teach them to be good people by our example, by the way we walk.
but i sure do love me jesus christ. i just think he is the bomb.
what i think about is how do i tell them that it is all okay, and yet some of it is not. that people die, lives change and we quiver, but not at the whim of a god. more at the challenge of living freely, beautifully and fully.
August 24th, 2009 at 11:14 am
I am not going to be nearly as eloquent as many of the comments above, but I just want to chime in and say that I am just as confused as what to say to my kids. We have gone to church for the past 4 years with them and now I am starting to feel myself pull away from it. While I think the kids are learning some really great basics about religion, I am finding myself not agreeing to some of the larger principles of this church. While it is contemporary, it is much more conservative than many of my values. So now I am on the hunt for a more progressive church. It isn’t an easy path me right now so it is hard for me to answer my kids questions. For now, I just try to make them feel safe and loved and so that is how I approach my answer to their God questions.
August 24th, 2009 at 11:29 am
just wanted to say how amazed i am by the beauty & thoughtfulness here, from so many.
and i wrote to Mike this morning and explained that i wasn’t offended, just irritated, by the proselytization…b/c it’s not in the spirit of engagement and only serves to further the “you can’t have a religious conversation without people ending up all het up” stereotype.
which i think, for the most part, we’re contradicting here.
but i’m not deleting Mike’s stuff, either. too embedded in everything else written here now, and hopefully will serve as a note to anyone else who shows up with the same agenda.
August 24th, 2009 at 11:40 am
I am actually kind of in the opposite position of a lot of the other people in your comments, where my husband and I are SUBSTANTIALLY more religious than our families of origin. My husband’s parents are casually non-religious (and rather uncasually freaked out by their shockingly religious son), and my parents were in and out of various churches but never deeply involved – so we have the different issue of trying to figure out how to be a religious family with no real family history of belief.
So I mean, it’s not easy on the OTHER side of the page, either. Because of our belief system, we strongly believe in the importance and necessity of our children continuing in their faith as adults – and at the same time, we don’t want to raise people who force their faith onto unwilling ears, who are scornful of people with different faiths. So just having faith doesn’t answer all of those questions, either. We fumble around, too.
August 24th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
I was taught about the Catholic and Baptist religion, and told that I could believe and take away what I wanted. Without being taught, how could I choose, was the thinking of my parents. I appreciate their openess about it. What I’ve come to decide is that there is a difference between faith and religion. Faith is something I can have and share without the structure of the Church the rules that go with it. I have a strong faith but I am not a religious person if that makes sense. I teach my kids what I know, and encourage them to choose what feels right to them. There is no right or wrong, it just is.
August 24th, 2009 at 5:27 pm
I can relate very, very strongly to this post. Thank you for writing it.
August 24th, 2009 at 9:33 pm
You know me, loads of agnosticism and the like. Here’s something timely and intelligent you may like:
First, read this – http://www.theglobeandmail.com/books/finding-god-in-spite-of-ourselves/article1259818/
Then this – http://www.randomhouse.ca/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780385660952
Then this – http://www.randomhouse.ca/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780307372536
Love to the family (in the non-Godly way).
August 25th, 2009 at 12:23 am
so, not the point, but the post right BEFORE this in my reader also used the word “liminal”
August 25th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
Hello. Well, lots of thoughtful comments. Looks like it is hard for people to stay on topic – talking about faith or lack of faith with our children. I guess because it is so tangled up with what we believe and our childhoods.
I am currently struggling with this. My mom has bought a few bible stories for my now 4 year old. I have recently been re-exploring Christianity. I found a group called “Christianity Explored” welcome and encouraged questions (not my experience as a child). The course parallels an engaging book called “Mere Christianity” by CS Lewis (based on some talks he did for BBC in 1942). Anyway, she thought I had done a full turnabout and bought a huge and $ book for Ryan on God!! She took offence when I replied “no thank you” but eventually returned it.
I think all we can do as parents is welcome and encourage questions (as scary as that can be). True humility (not humble pie and not fear mongering) helps in this regard.
Thank you for voicing your thoughts!
August 25th, 2009 at 2:20 pm
I would like to believe, not for the existential security that might offer, but for the comfort of a ready-made community of a church, for those rituals of bake sales and volunteering and gathering and ceremony that stitched my own (Catholic) youth together.
Munchkin hasn’t asked. I don’t quite know what I’d say, but your toddler-sized disquisition to O sounds like a great place to start, actually.
August 25th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
we share our faith with our daughter, but it’s hard sometimes to feel so confident in it. I want her to own it for herself, but also feel it’s important to give her a solid foundation from which to then question and explore. Right now her faith is quite simple, I guess. She doesn’t talk much about it… not like she did when she was a toddler (my favorite… eating lunch on the porch one day she was busy listing all the things God made… then she paused and said “God sure is a busy guy!”) I guess ultimately the test for me is whether she sees our faith in action in how we live from day to day, and not just in the stories we teach her.
August 25th, 2009 at 8:50 pm
I relate to the not quite knowing what to say. I found for example, the sex talk to be pretty easy as it is fairly black and white. I can explain facts but how to explain something I feel I am still mulling over for myself was tough. I guess I feel like the “some people believe” kind of stuff I gave them is a bit of a cop out. I was a honest as I could be in saying that they will have to decide for themselves what is true and that I will try to help them investigate in any way I can. The fact that they look to me as the authority for that type of thing is humbling. I cant remember how old I was before I realized that my own mother was just another person and no expert. I wonder when my own are going to catch on.
August 27th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
Add-on comment to say that I am not sure how to escape the “some people believe…” words. Whether I land firmly in Christian Faith or not I imagine always using these words. Whether it describes what I believe or not… Of course, my son hasn’t asked yet. His most recent difficult question was “Are there real jails?” You see he is a fan of spider-man and co now… It seems an easy question to answer, especially as his dad works at a half-way house for guys coming out of federal penitentiaries. But it lead to so many other questions. Interesting.
August 28th, 2009 at 1:24 am
Bon, yes, you have captured it so well. I feel I am letting him down if I do not provide him with tradition and community and a solid faith, yet I do not have the same relationship with the church as I did when I was a kid, and sometimes find more harm in it than good. My 7 year old is exhibiting that he has absorbed an ethical base, but that’s only a small part of it, isn’t it?
August 30th, 2009 at 5:16 am
Bon, you have written so beautifully something which could have come from my own heart (only I couldn’t put it as well as you do, I am sure!). My husband and I were both raised in church-going families, and both moved away from church long ago. We did not baptise our children, but have held “name-giving” ceremonies for them. We have asked friends and relatives to be god-parents, and deliberately chosen religious (church-going, that is) people for this role. That way, when the children ask these questions, we can give them our own answers, and their god-parents can give them their answers. So far this has worked well (our oldest is nearly seven). Come to think of it, each set of god-parents is from a different denomination; that was not by design but is rather nice I think.
I enjoy church music, and play in a church once a month now. I rather regret that I don’t share the faith, but I feel it a privilege to contribute to the experience of those who do. I like to take the children to church once in a while so they feel comfortable there and can choose to go later in life if they wish.
We do the best we can, as we all do, but I know exactly what you mean about the “belonging”.
September 7th, 2009 at 11:34 am
We are Christians, but lately I’ve struggled a bit with the politics that seem to come along with this. I don’t necessarily believe Jesus would have been a Republican, but the rest of our religion seems to. That makes things a bit difficult at times.
September 7th, 2009 at 11:28 pm
Another beautiful, thoughtful and thought-provoking post.
How to share my faith with my kids is something I feel conflicted about. I rejected the very conservative religious beliefs of my family of origin, but returned to the overall faith, albeit for completely different reasons than the ones I was force fed as a child. Put more bluntly, I felt that the faith imposed on me was one of rules and regulations, where I feel the faith I’ve chosen is one of relationship.
How to provide ways and opportunities for my children to develop and explore a relationship with God themselves without veering uncomfortably close to indoctrination is what stumps me most. I can model my faith to some extent, but there are practical limitations of this. Particularly as some aspects of a relationship – especially one with God – are inherently private, and that by trying to give voice to or explain them it is all too easy for me to misrepresent or miscommunicate.
The faith imposed upon me was simple and clear; full of black and white. The faith I have chosen is almost entirely shades of grey. While I share a few central beliefs, a great swathe of theology my family would view as crucial tenets I consider to be meaningless, irrelevant, harmful or simply unknowable. So I wonder about how much of the add ons I expose them to? When? With what level of context and discussion? What is being overly prescriptive? What is being irresponsibly non-directive in light of all the information that others will happily proselytize about?
So, it’s hard. I don’t have the answers. I fumble along. I long at times for the relative ease of black and white, but I shudder at the prospect of going there. My oldest is not even three, so I gather there will be many years of trying to work it out.
June 30th, 2010 at 2:49 pm
Thanks for your write ups, your blog is not like all the other spammy and poorly written sites. you got a bookmark from me!